Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb

thedisc · 02-20-2004, 06:49 AM

Hi guys - Just a note to let you know our Indy review is live @ www.thediscworld.co.uk/indyreview.htm

We've just set up some new forums on the site and they're feeling a little lonely at the moment so if anyone fancies signing up you're more than welcome.

The Seed · 02-20-2004, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedisc

Hi guys - Just a note to let you know our Indy review is live @ www.thediscworld.co.uk/indyreview.htm

We've just set up some new forums on the site and they're feeling a little lonely at the moment so if anyone fancies signing up you're more than welcome.

You know, that review looks odly like one from a certain PC magazine I read a while back. And so does the Simon the Sorcerer 3D one.

Skinkie · 02-20-2004, 08:15 AM

Wow what a downer. I love that game, it is soooo cool. The control complaint, really its just a matter of adjusting, after I grew used to them, I came to see it as a fantastic control system. Also the story itself is very in depth, not as much as the movies, but way more than your average fighting game. Oh well, that's my vent.

jedicri · 02-20-2004, 09:20 AM

Game control and the fact that you can't save at will are my only complaints about this game and are the two reasons why I have not re-played it. Personally, I loathe console to pc converted games.... I struck out on this one.

Intrepid Homoludens · 02-20-2004, 10:26 AM

Hmmm, I have a strange lurking feeling this reviewer fellow may not have really played ET all the way through, or he wasn't paying very much attention, or both. Worse, he could have been suffering from the 'I-already-hate-your-game' disease. I disagree with his score, but more importantly, I don't think this is a well written review. It reads more like a list of generic complaints rather than a well researched, analytical, and insightful critique.

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The game is so lacking in depth and so obviously geared towards no-brainer console players that it’s a travesty. Blaming it on the consoles is the easy option however when in reality the blame should be footed by the publishers who have forgotten that the public in general actually have a brain and don’t mind putting it to some use on the odd occasion. However, feeding the public bland, mindless entertainment is a trait that can be found across all forms of entertainment in our current culture. Ultimately, the biggest problem with the game is that it simply smacks of laziness and seems to be an unloved and unwanted game.

Because he hasn't presented his definition of what constitutes 'depth', especially given the context of the action/adventure, I'm a bit hazy. For me, depth in this case has more to do with design and execution, not concept and scope. Don't expect a Dostoevsky deep story and Operation Flashpoint style gameplay. I suspect that he overlooked the precious little touches that LucasArts inserted - the doctor's prescription for Indy's injured shoulder in the printed game manual combined with Indy actually adjusting his shoulder from time to time in the game (during idle animations), that Indy's hat is often knocked off his head during heavy fist fights and you can go back and pick it up after. It's these small but cumulatively effective things that imbue this kind of game with more depth and continuity for me.

It is, after all, an action/adventure game and, with LucasArts behind it, one of higher grade production quality respective of the classic cliffhanger of the early 20th century - D.W. Griffith films, The Perils of Pauline, serial movies of the 30s and 40s - the movies that inspired Steven Spielberg and George Lucas to create Indiana Jones and his world in the first place. And this brings me to another point, that the pedigree of this game constitutes another kind of depth, particularly if you're an Indy aficionado. The comparisons and accusations pertaining to Tomb Raider is moot, Indy Jones came first, and the only disappointment (to me, at least) is that LucasArts hadn't already created a cliffhanger style action/adventure game before the TR franchise. Besides, when Lara first debuted, people complained that she was nothing but an Indy Jones but with T&A.

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There’s worse to follow though as it’s also an extremely frustrating game. Not because it’s hard mind, but because it has one of the worst control system’s ever to be implemented. Imagine our joy when we discovered that mouse support had been included (a rarity for console conversions) but this all goes to hell when you realise that the mouse only controls the camera and has no effect on Indy. As a result this means that pressing the down arrow will actually make Indy turn and run back towards the camera rather than stepping backwards. Annoying, frustrating and lazy are all words that come to mind and trust us, it’s even worse with a game pad. There’s more however, you can only save at the end of levels although thankfully most levels are very short which means this isn’t as much of a problem as it might seem at first.

I agree 100%. Controls could have been much better, and the inclusion of unlimited saves regardless of place in game. Come on, you moronic devs! My PC has far more memory than the console, take advantage of it! However, I managed to rise above this cumbersomeness and still have fun. The only truly annoying part was fighting multiple enemies in a small room with that awful camera view.

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In fairness the game’s engine is actually quite good and the combat sections do look rather nice although they’re not really fun to play through. Combat essentially involves repeatedly hitting the mouse button to either hit with your fist, weapon or shoot from your gun. There’s very little skill involved and as such the outcome is normally down to luck as opposed to any divine inspiration from the player.

I strongly disagree. I'm not sure the reviewer actually took some time to practice the combat - timing is key - and which difficulty level he chose. When you are fistfighting two or more human enemies (2 of which are brandishing swords or throwing knives) skill is all you have, and you'd better have a lot of it! It's also a matter of knowing what's going on all around you rather than just in front of you. Also, I doubt the reviewer took time to play around with the weapons, especially the whip. Again, timing is key.

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Ultimately, it seems blatantly obvious to us that the game was rushed in order to get it out before Lara’s most recent adventure and unfortunately it shows all too easily. Developers, The Collective, are normally responsible for some good stuff so it’s unfortunate that a talented company and a brilliant license should be wasted in such a way.

What's his source for this? And can he list some of the 'good stuff' from The Collective for the casual reader's perusal to make their own minds up?

Intrepid Homoludens · 02-20-2004, 11:10 AM

annendum: Now, I'm not necessarily stating that I'd give ET a much higher score than this review (hmm, probably a 70-75/100, less that awful camera and controls), but my main beef is the quality of the review itself. I really wish there were a mandatory Journalism 101 course, a reading list of reknowned critics, and a thorough reading of William Strunk, Jr.'s The Elements of Style. Sorry for my annoyance, but being a passionate gamer is one thing, being a good, informative, and conscientious writer is another.

Deshrill · 02-20-2004, 11:24 AM

Quote:

being a passionate gamer is one thing, being a good, informative, and conscientious writer is another.

Yeah, writing video game reviews is tricky... I've gotten better at it from writing for my high school and college newspapers. What bugs me the most is when a review is just a glorified synopsis with very little of an actual review in there. I mean, synopses are necessary to a point, but when it's the whole review it seems a bit cheap. I feel this way about movie reviews as well, but that's a whole other issue.

Basically reviews aren't just saying "King's Quest: Mask of Eternity sucks!!"-- you have to say why it sucks, cite examples from other similar games that did things better, etc...

thedisc · 02-20-2004, 03:38 PM

I have enjoyed reading your de-construction of the review Intrepid. As editor of the site, and not the reviewer of the game I was more than pleased with the quality of the review.

I know for a fact that the reviewer had finished the game and had concentrated as said reviewer was a huge Indy fan and as such as was hugely disappointed with the game.

I would imagine that the reviewer hadn't defined depth as he didn't feel the need to. We would like to assume that our reader's have the intelligence to understand what we mean by depth and that if we had to define every noun, verb or adjective in a review then reviews would end up being pages and pages long.

Ultimately, I think the problem the reviewer had was that quite simply the game isn't a patch on Fate of Atlantis which was one of the greatest adventure games of all time. Hand on heart can you honestly say that the Emperor's Tomb comes anyway near Fate of Atlantis?

Good stuff from The Collective? Nocturne, Buffy on the X-Box and Deep Space 9. Fair point, it should have been included in the review.

I donno maybe I need to hire better reviewers but I think that it was a fair and well-written review of a poorly executed game and I think we were rather generous with the score we gave it.

Intrepid Homoludens · 02-20-2004, 05:50 PM

Thanks for the informative reply, disc. I apologize for my presumptuousness, and I promised myself to read some of the other reviews in your site to get more of its flavour. I do still, however, have a little nit to pick, if you don't mind. I haven't played Fate of Atlantis, but from my understanding it's a classic LucasArts adventure. It seems a bit strange then that the reviewer would compare a contemporary action/adventure to a classic adventure where action is not a feature of the gameplay and not intertwined with the story, either.

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Unfortunately, the latest Indy game does little to buck the trend and simply serves to show further how games are degrading. Cast your minds back to the heady days of 1989 when the first Indy adventure game was released. It was a true classic and still plays remarkably well today. It was followed in 1992 by an even better sequel called the Fate of Atlantis. These games were perky little fellows with well thought-out puzzles; good dialogue and gave the player the impression that they really were playing an Indiana Jones game. These two gems were subsequently followed up many years later by Indy’s first 3D outing in the form of The Infernal Machine which was an attempt to claw back some of those players who’d moved over to Lara’s Tomb Raider games and was still a more than decent game. Which brings us today and we’re given The Emperor’s Tomb which is so simple and tedious you can do little but gasp with despair and re-watch you’re old Indy films on DVD.

Why would you compare ET to FoA or earlier Indy games when ET (or IM) is clearly an action/adventure behaving within its respective genre. Just because ET abandoned its classic adventure roots doesn't necessarily mean it's any less substantial as a game of another genre. Hence, ET would be more akin and comparable to conceptually similar titles like Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time, and Beyond Good and Evil, against which it could be gauged. That LucasArts and The Collective have apparently departed from keeping Indy firmly rooted in the 'old school click this onto that' formula is clear. It's disappointing that this has happened, but ET should, IMO, be viewed more on its merits (and demerits) as an action/adventure, not as the prodigal son of classic adventure games.

***Jackal*** · 02-20-2004, 06:04 PM

It's not so much a definition of depth that's required, but a CONTEXT. If it's a matter of intellectual stimulation (as the overall tone seems to suggest), then the reviewer had some misguided expectations. Lemme see... wafer thin story, underdeveloped characters, lots of swashbuckling, edge-of-your-seat action... yep, sounds like Indiana Jones to me!

I'm continually amused by those that uphold Fate of Atlantis as the pinnacle of all-things Indy. It was a great adventure game, no question. But however you slice it, the action games more closely capture the essence of the movies. The reviewer acknowledged the fact (its influence on Tomb Raider), but then failed to overcome his inherent bias.

As for my own impressions, I quite enjoyed the game - definitely more than Infernal Machine. Its flaws were common to most or all third person games, really. Using a gamepad, I had no problem with the controls. My only complaint is the atrocious save system, but that's stating the obvious.

I didn't find a single aspect of the game felt "rushed". It did absolutely nothing new, no, but production values were high, and it was a worthy treatment of Indy.

EDIT: Umm, yeah - what Trep just said.

Intrepid Homoludens · 02-20-2004, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singer

It's not so much a definition of depth that's required, but a CONTEXT.

Exactly. The game was unfairly criticized using the criteria of the classic adventure, rather than the proper one of action/adventure.

Quote:

If it's a matter of intellectual stimulation (as the overall tone seems to suggest), then the reviewer had some misguided expectations. Lemme see... wafer thin story, underdeveloped characters, lots of swashbuckling, edge-of-your-seat action... yep, sounds like Indiana Jones to me!

I'm continually amused by those that uphold Fate of Atlantis as the pinnacle of all-things Indy. It was a great adventure game, no question. But however you slice it, the action games more closely capture the essence of the movies.

Bingo. ET and IM are both more true Indy experiences than previous titles could ever be. With due respect towards FoA, Indy Jones Desktop Adventures, and etc., Indiana Jones is foremost an action hero, not a puzzle-solving tomb raider.

Quote:

The reviewer acknowledged the fact (its influence on Tomb Raider), but then failed to overcome his inherent bias.

Heheh, I kinda was trying to avoid pointing this out, but yeah.

remixor · 02-20-2004, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singer

I'm continually amused by those that uphold Fate of Atlantis as the pinnacle of all-things Indy. It was a great adventure game, no question. But however you slice it, the action games more closely capture the essence of the movies. The reviewer acknowledged the fact (its influence on Tomb Raider), but then failed to overcome his inherent bias.

I completely agree with your post, but I'd like to say a few things regarding this point. I would think that most people who consider Fate of Atlantis the best Indy game (such as I) consider it "the best game featuring Indiana Jones", not "the best reproduction of an Indiana Jones movie in a computer game". Certainly the action games share more in common with the movies, but it's hard not to say that FOA is a better game. That being said, I think this particular reviewer is indeed guilty of the bias you indicate, I just wanted to set the record straight for many of the rest of us.

Intrepid Homoludens · 02-21-2004, 12:24 AM

Specifically, mixie, by some popular consensus, "the best adventure game featuring Indiana Jones". Infernal Machine and Emperor's Tomb are not adventure games, of course. They were never meant to be, obviously.

thedisc · 02-21-2004, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid Homoludens

Thanks for the informative reply, disc. I apologize for my presumptuousness, and I promised myself to read some of the other reviews in your site to get more of its flavour. I do still, however, have a little nit to pick, if you don't mind. I haven't played Fate of Atlantis, but from my understanding it's a classic LucasArts adventure. It seems a bit strange then that the reviewer would compare a contemporary action/adventure to a classic adventure where action is not a feature of the gameplay and not intertwined with the story, either.

Fair point. I think the comparison was made in order to demonstrate how by changing the style of gameplay from earlier games in the Indy series, the games as a result have suffered.

I would imagine it's fair to say that maybe the review does read slightly harshly simply because it's another example of publishers focusing on action/adventure which rarely feature any adventure in them. The puzzles that are in the game are mindless and dull unlike classic LucasArts adventure games. As a modern day action/adventure I myself thought it was a passable attempt at making Indy more Lara-like and was an average diversion for a few hours but when compared with Fate of Atlantis (a game which is over 10 years old) it pales in comparison.

If you can track down a copy of Fate of Atlantis I really would give it a whirl, I'm sure you won't be disappointed.

Ninja Dodo · 02-21-2004, 06:31 AM

Actually Atlantis isn't a 100% classical adventure because Indy can get into fights also. Although that is strictly optional...
I think the problem with the Indy games is that the old adventures were too pondrous and cerebral compared to the films, and the new games are too actiony. Yes, Indy is mostly an action hero, but there's plenty of time for calm reflection, thinking and exploration in the films. The ideal balance is somewhere inbetween it all.

I haven't actually played Emperor's Tomb so I'm not sure what it's like exactly but I was shocked to read the development Post Mortem at Gamasutra:
http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20...mobbs_01.shtml

Quote:

One of the biggest benefits of joining The Collective while it was developing Buffy was the fact that there was substantial existing technology to work with. We had the working Buffy engine as a base and spent most of our time customizing and extending it to suit The Emperor's Tomb. Having the existing technology to work with was immeasurably better than trying to write everything from scratch.

One of the ways this helped was having an engine and editor which both worked on our development platform. While I was working on porting the engine to the Xbox the team was able to start development with the PC version. This allowed us to easily prototype and test behaviors, environments, and character designs. We were even able to borrow some basic elements from Buffy, such as their weights and measures setups and basic character control, to get our prototype on-line.

It seems to me Buffy and Indy are such completely incompatible styles of story that it really wouldn't make sense to base the gameplay of the one on the other.

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Early in the project, the tone was set between the leads and the owners of the company. Each week we would have a meeting where we would examine the schedule and assess how far we had fallen behind. The leads would point out that we were lacking the development staff that had been expected to join the team, which was the primary cause of the slip. The owners would counter this argument by telling us that there was nothing they could do about the situation, and that it was up to us to "make up the difference".

After a few months of this, and seemingly endless crunch time early in the project, it became difficult for the leads and owners to converse rationally. They just wanted the work done; we just wanted the proper manpower to do it. Conversations became tense, there were some arguments, and after a while we began to subconsciously avoid one another. Unfortunately, this adversarial situation combined with the intense workload to cause a complete communication breakdown between the upper tiers of management. Although the project leads conversed on a daily basis, we rarely spoke to, or heard from, the owners.

Morale at the company was less than stellar. The general attitude had become very critical over the long course of Buffy's development. After all, it is difficult to maintain excitement and enthusiasm indefinitely. People had become quick to notice and point out flaws, and there was very little positive feedback to offset the constant criticism. In particular, many people were fond of what I call "drive-by riffing": someone would walk past someone else's desk, see what they were working on, and point out the first visible flaw. Unfortunately this behavior was extremely contagious, because everyone likes to be the center of attention and to make other people laugh. But almost nobody likes to be made fun of.

We desperately tried to fight this destructive attitude, but it was a constant battle. For the first part of the project we tried to build team unity by having progressive build demonstrations for the team. We would gather everyone in a large meeting room and play the game, showing off new features and levels. But, like open-mic night at the local comedy club, inevitably the mean-spirited jokes would start and feelings would be hurt. Eventually we stopped having the meetings because it just seemed people would only laugh at the flaws, rather than enjoy the good parts.

Wow, that just sounds like the ideal working environment... :eek:

***Jackal*** · 02-21-2004, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by remixor

I would think that most people who consider Fate of Atlantis the best Indy game (such as I) consider it "the best game featuring Indiana Jones", not "the best reproduction of an Indiana Jones movie in a computer game".

For sure, mix, and I also think FoA is still the best Indy-featured game, regardless of genre. I just think some people CAN'T make that distinction. Everything is compared to FoA as the defining standard of Indy, and not the movies. Like this review. Bizarre.

remixor · 02-21-2004, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Singer

For sure, mix, and I also think FoA is still the best Indy-featured game, regardless of genre. I just think some people CAN'T make that distinction. Everything is compared to FoA as the defining standard of Indy, and not the movies. Like this review. Bizarre.

Ah ok, yes. I think I misread your point about FoA being used as the basis of comparison above the movies, which definitely is extremely bizarre.

02-20-2004, 06:49 AM	#1
thedisc Junior Member Last Online: 08-04-2004 08:04 AM Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 12	Indiana Jones and the Emperor's Tomb Hi guys - Just a note to let you know our Indy review is live @ www.thediscworld.co.uk/indyreview.htm We've just set up some new forums on the site and they're feeling a little lonely at the moment so if anyone fancies signing up you're more than welcome.

02-20-2004, 08:15 AM	#3
Skinkie Disciplined Breakdown Last Online: 11-08-2010 01:27 PM Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 238	Wow what a downer. I love that game, it is soooo cool. The control complaint, really its just a matter of adjusting, after I grew used to them, I came to see it as a fantastic control system. Also the story itself is very in depth, not as much as the movies, but way more than your average fighting game. Oh well, that's my vent. __________________ One life, One love, One World, It's Vertigo -Planet Us (Sammy Hagar, Neil Schon, Joe Satriani, Micheal Anthony, Deen Castronovo), Vertigo

02-20-2004, 11:10 AM	#6
Intrepid Homoludens merely human Last Online: 05-17-2012 02:26 AM Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 22,309	annendum: Now, I'm not necessarily stating that I'd give ET a much higher score than this review (hmm, probably a 70-75/100, less that awful camera and controls), but my main beef is the quality of the review itself. I really wish there were a mandatory Journalism 101 course, a reading list of reknowned critics, and a thorough reading of William Strunk, Jr.'s The Elements of Style. Sorry for my annoyance, but being a passionate gamer is one thing, being a good, informative, and conscientious writer is another. __________________ platform: laptop, iPhone 3Gs \| gaming: x360, PS3, psp, iPhone, wii \| blog: a space alien \| book: the moral landscape: how science can determine human values by sam harris \| games: l.a.noire, portal 2, brink, dragon age 2, heavy rain \| sites: NPR, skeptoid, gaygamer \| music: ray lamontagne, adele, washed out, james blake \| twitter: a_space_alien

02-21-2004, 12:24 AM	#13
Intrepid Homoludens merely human Last Online: 05-17-2012 02:26 AM Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Chicago Posts: 22,309	Specifically, mixie, by some popular consensus, "the best adventure game featuring Indiana Jones". Infernal Machine and Emperor's Tomb are not adventure games, of course. They were never meant to be, obviously. __________________ platform: laptop, iPhone 3Gs \| gaming: x360, PS3, psp, iPhone, wii \| blog: a space alien \| book: the moral landscape: how science can determine human values by sam harris \| games: l.a.noire, portal 2, brink, dragon age 2, heavy rain \| sites: NPR, skeptoid, gaygamer \| music: ray lamontagne, adele, washed out, james blake \| twitter: a_space_alien

02-20-2004, 09:20 AM	#4
jedicri Senior Member Last Online: 12-11-2010 01:28 PM Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 129	Game control and the fact that you can't save at will are my only complaints about this game and are the two reasons why I have not re-played it. Personally, I loathe console to pc converted games.... I struck out on this one.

02-20-2004, 03:38 PM	#8
thedisc Junior Member Last Online: 08-04-2004 08:04 AM Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 12	I have enjoyed reading your de-construction of the review Intrepid. As editor of the site, and not the reviewer of the game I was more than pleased with the quality of the review. I know for a fact that the reviewer had finished the game and had concentrated as said reviewer was a huge Indy fan and as such as was hugely disappointed with the game. I would imagine that the reviewer hadn't defined depth as he didn't feel the need to. We would like to assume that our reader's have the intelligence to understand what we mean by depth and that if we had to define every noun, verb or adjective in a review then reviews would end up being pages and pages long. Ultimately, I think the problem the reviewer had was that quite simply the game isn't a patch on Fate of Atlantis which was one of the greatest adventure games of all time. Hand on heart can you honestly say that the Emperor's Tomb comes anyway near Fate of Atlantis? Good stuff from The Collective? Nocturne, Buffy on the X-Box and Deep Space 9. Fair point, it should have been included in the review. I donno maybe I need to hire better reviewers but I think that it was a fair and well-written review of a poorly executed game and I think we were rather generous with the score we gave it.

02-20-2004, 06:04 PM	#10
*Jackal* Hopeful skeptic Last Online: 09-18-2013 05:02 PM Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toronto Posts: 7,743	It's not so much a definition of depth that's required, but a CONTEXT. If it's a matter of intellectual stimulation (as the overall tone seems to suggest), then the reviewer had some misguided expectations. Lemme see... wafer thin story, underdeveloped characters, lots of swashbuckling, edge-of-your-seat action... yep, sounds like Indiana Jones to me! I'm continually amused by those that uphold Fate of Atlantis as the pinnacle of all-things Indy. It was a great adventure game, no question. But however you slice it, the action games more closely capture the essence of the movies. The reviewer acknowledged the fact (its influence on Tomb Raider), but then failed to overcome his inherent bias. As for my own impressions, I quite enjoyed the game - definitely more than Infernal Machine. Its flaws were common to most or all third person games, really. Using a gamepad, I had no problem with the controls. My only complaint is the atrocious save system, but that's stating the obvious. I didn't find a single aspect of the game felt "rushed". It did absolutely nothing new, no, but production values were high, and it was a worthy treatment of Indy. EDIT: Umm, yeah - what Trep just said.