What is acceptable Copy Protection?

*stepurhan* · 07-09-2006, 12:22 AM

To start with I'm making two assumptions.

Developers have a right to protect their games with copy protection. Copying reduces sales of games and hence their return. Therefore some form of copy protection is a necessary evil.
Starforce is not an acceptable form of copy protection. I haven't followed the arguments fully on this one but I know there has been a lot of negative publicity.. It is therefore possible that Starforce is unviable, not because it is a flawed system but because it is PERCEIVED to be a flawed system. If games with it won't be purchased then it's no good. If you want to argue this point I'd politely request you use one of the existing Starforce threads.

So what is acceptable copy protection?

Historically something as simple as putting the game on CD was enough. Now CD-writers are standard. You could put codes in a manual (carefully shaded to hamper photocopying) but high-res scanners and PDF manuals put an end to them. Similarly any sort of code chart is now easily copied. Even code wheels won't take that much to copy.

What can developers do to protect their hard work now? What forms of copy protection would be effective and acceptable to users? Are there any innovative ideas already in use? Over to you guys.

kuze · 07-09-2006, 02:29 AM

Either you invest in an unbreakable copyprotection, and then recieve a lot of whining because "hurts my system" (like heck it does, you just can't pirate it), or you decide to use one that is more likely to be cracked.

So if you say, Starforce is off limits (and I suppose so is every Starforce-like copyprotection that sits on a lower system level and is very hard to break), I'd say an acceptable protection is one that won't be cracked within days just because of its complexity (see HL2) but does not interfere with the legitime user. This way, for the guys that want the game as soon as possible the downloading and cracking option is not available, so they will go out and buy it - more sales during the first few weeks.

A very common idea is to implement a multiplayer part into the game, and everyone who wants to use it will have to buy it (serial number required) - I'm not sure if you can file this measurement under "copyprotection".

kuddles · 07-09-2006, 05:03 AM

I really liked what Galactic Civilizations 2 did. I think I would allow it to go a step further i.e. you can't even patch your game unless you register the game on the official website. Heck, you could also do something where you get bonus materials like extra maps, etc. for doing so. I know that can be abused by some larger companies, but I think it's a good compromise. I also think the internet checking system similar to what Steam or the premium modules for Neverwinter Nights does is also a brilliant plan, and eventually concerns over internet connections won't be as big of an issue in the future.

On another note, while I don't support piracy and think this new mindset in our society that everyone feels they should be entitled to whatever they want is atrocious, I have strong doubts as to it's effect on sales. We're talking about the type of person who will wait for a 1 gig download of a film appears on a bittorrent site to finish, and then sit through a blurry/shaky camera with dubious sound or video quality and/or parts missing, along with plenty of other problems, and all of this to avoid plunking down $3.00 at their local second-run theatre. I don't think many of these people will be willing to relieve themselves of $60.00 because a crack for a game isn't going to appear for a couple weeks.

MdaG · 07-09-2006, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuze

Either you invest in an unbreakable copyprotection, and then recieve a lot of whining because "hurts my system" (like heck it does, you just can't pirate it), or you decide to use one that is more likely to be cracked.

Moment of Silence and Star force made it hard for my DVD-drive to read the DVD. I usually had to wait 5 min before it detected it. Myst V is another game whos' "protection" has prohibited me from playing it. I still have it in my book case waiting for me to buy a new drive before I can play it. I've checked with their support and they confirm it's because of the "protection". So "heck yeah it at least hurts!".

*stepurhan* · 07-09-2006, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuddles

On another note, while I don't support piracy and think this new mindset in our society that everyone feels they should be entitled to whatever they want is atrocious, I have strong doubts as to it's effect on sales. We're talking about the type of person who will wait for a 1 gig download of a film appears on a bittorrent site to finish, and then sit through a blurry/shaky camera with dubious sound or video quality and/or parts missing, along with plenty of other problems, and all of this to avoid plunking down $3.00 at their local second-run theatre. I don't think many of these people will be willing to relieve themselves of $60.00 because a crack for a game isn't going to appear for a couple weeks.

I agree with you there is a hard-core that will not stump up for the real thing no matter what. At best, a copy protection system just denies these people access to a particular game.

but I do think there is an in-between group. People who've maybe downloaded the ocassional abandonware title (See this thread for further discussion on that ) and ends up downloading more recent games just because they can. It could be said to be a symptom of the modern convenience culture (I can download it illegally now, if I order it I won't be able to play for a few days) It's more this group that I think will be affexcted by a halfway decent copy protection system.

Like I said at the start I really don't want to get into the Starforce question. It may or may not create real problems. Fior thsi discussion that's irrelevant. If the belief that it creates problems is widespread then it becomes unviable. McDonalds would collapse if a widespread belief that their burgers could kill you instantly took hold. It wouldn't matter if it had actually happened or not. If people won't buy you don't have a viable product no matter how safe it is.

SakSquash · 07-09-2006, 09:41 AM

The only good copy protection is a DEAD copy protection.

Rulzern · 07-09-2006, 01:53 PM

I'd say good copy protection is "as good as you can get it, without hampering your legitimate customers".

Online activation is fine with me (Quake 4), but not online publishing systems (Steam).

I really liked Quake 4's copy protection, because it's really simple, you put in your key, it verifies it, and you can play, no more hassle. If you don't have an internet connection, it will check against the local key-checking code, so you can play anyway. If you want to get around it, it's fairly simple, but it's an inconvenience. So piracy is limited to those willing to put up with finding a key, disconnecting their internet each time they want to play, and not getting any updates. This means that for Mr. Average Joe buying the game will be a superior solution compared to pirating it.

The problem with pirating isn't all the people who download your software and use it (they generate revenue for you by spreading the word), it's the people who _would_ have bought it, but just found it more convenient to download it instead. The scary pirating figures that publishers wave around, are composed of a vast majority of people who wouldn't have bought the game anyway, and these people, by trying the game, generate word of mouth about the game, inspiring other people to buy it.

My stance on this issue, is that developers/publishers should make it an advantage to buy the game, and most of all, don't inconvenience your legitimate users!

Huz · 07-09-2006, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuddles

I really liked what Galactic Civilizations 2 did. I think I would allow it to go a step further i.e. you can't even patch your game unless you register the game on the official website. Heck, you could also do something where you get bonus materials like extra maps, etc. for doing so. I know that can be abused by some larger companies, but I think it's a good compromise. I also think the internet checking system similar to what Steam or the premium modules for Neverwinter Nights does is also a brilliant plan, and eventually concerns over internet connections won't be as big of an issue in the future.

On another note, while I don't support piracy and think this new mindset in our society that everyone feels they should be entitled to whatever they want is atrocious, I have strong doubts as to it's effect on sales. We're talking about the type of person who will wait for a 1 gig download of a film appears on a bittorrent site to finish, and then sit through a blurry/shaky camera with dubious sound or video quality and/or parts missing, along with plenty of other problems, and all of this to avoid plunking down $3.00 at their local second-run theatre. I don't think many of these people will be willing to relieve themselves of $60.00 because a crack for a game isn't going to appear for a couple weeks.

I agree with this entire post, though I also agree with Stepurhan's additional comment that an in-between group will pirate games just because it is more convenient. The solution lies in kuddles' first paragraph: make it worth the player's while to buy a legitimate copy of the game. This doesn't have to come in the form of additional game content available to registered users, although it's a perfectly reasonable suggestion. I bought many boxed Amiga games which included full colour manuals, posters, and other freebies. Nowdays you're lucky if the publisher deigns to include a wanky PDF manual on the CD.

Perhaps some kind of loyalty scheme initiative by publishers would spur legitimate sales. You buy a game and receive a voucher in the box. You could then 'cash in' this voucher at participating stores (or even via mail-order with the publisher) to get money off your next game.

Nintendo already have their VIP 24/7 service, where each game includes 'Stars' that can be registered at the web site in exchange for additional content and occasional freebies. Ironically, the Gamecube is the one "current-gen" system (not Xbox 360) that's really hard to pirate for.

artwking4 · 07-09-2006, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huz

Nowdays you're lucky if the publisher deigns to include a wanky PDF manual on the CD.

And even then, the PDF manual usually ends up being in black & white...

Grey · 07-09-2006, 09:23 PM

I like Stardock's stance on this issue. Their game Galactic Civilizations II has no copy protection and was, at one time, Walmart's top selling game.

Quote:

All software is pirated, there's no way around it. We've been making software for over 10 years. We don't like our software being pirated. Like I said, every lost sales has an impact on us. But there are other ways to reduce it than through draconian copy protection systems.

The question isn't about eliminating piracy, it's about increasing sales. It's about trying to make sure that people who would buy your product buy it instead of steal it.

Our primary weapon to fight piracy is through rewarding customers through convenient, frequent, free updates.

If you make it easy for users to buy and make full use of your product or service legitimately then we believe that you'll gain more users from that convenience than you'll lose from piracy.

Stoofa · 07-10-2006, 01:02 PM

I think Maxis has a good thing going with the Sims and Sims 2. There is some kind of copy protection on the discs (I don't think it's Starforce) but the game is crackable. However, if you register your legitimate copy of the game you can download regular newly created objects and updates for the game, as well as houses and Sims that other people have created. It's a great way to intice people to pony up the $$ and pay for a copy of the game rather than download it.

[toj.cc]Phantom · 07-10-2006, 09:01 PM

Anything that isn't Starforce.

Gordon Bennett · 07-12-2006, 12:00 AM

I think that the increased use of more invasive copy protection, such as Starforce, is a terrible mistake that the software houses are making. It does make piracy more difficult, but not impossible. There is no such thing as perfect copy protection. At some point, the game has to be put on the shelf, and from there on, there is no way to alter the protection, but pirates can continue efforts to circumvent it as for as long as it takes.

The overall effect is that, as we have seen, legitimate buyers are alienated, and those who would otherwise buy the game may either skip it entirely or turn to piracy.

I've said this before, I'm bound to say it again. The best way for publishers to reduce their losses is not to include any more than the most basic protection, but to add value to originals that can not be duplicated by pirates. Infocom is of course the best example of this, with the collection of feelies included in every box. Other games have been released with books, maps, figurines, and other physical items. As it stands, a working pirated version is as good as the original. I don't know if this is the case anymore, but I remember in the past pirate copies were often superior, as they were often compressed, bugfixed, and trained, and often included a cracktro, documentation, and loading screen available as a separate executable.

Even if this is no longer the case, the duplicate still contains everything in the original. As long as this is the case, piracy remains attractive. Additional items that are not on the disc will entice people to buy the original, even if they have a pirated copy or access to one, and rewards legitimate customers instead of punishing them with intrusive protection techniques.

The most treasured items in my game collection, even more than the ultra-rare games, are the extra added items. It does make a difference.

*stepurhan* · 07-12-2006, 02:41 AM

I agree with you Gordon. But wouldn't inclueing such physical items require a total reversal of the trend to ship games in DVD style boxes. I havent' seen a new big boxed game in ages.

I did love all that old stuff. I've still got my avatar coin and cloth map of Britannia from my Commodore 64 copy of Ultima V.

Maybe the additional content only available to registered users would be the way to go. How would you stop that being pirated thoguh? Presumably piracy starts with someone shelling out for the game so couldn't that same individual register for the extra stuff and then distribute it in the same way?

kuddles · 07-12-2006, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon Bennett

The overall effect is that, as we have seen, legitimate buyers are alienated, and those who would otherwise buy the game may either skip it entirely or turn to piracy.

There are several games with copy protection that forced me to uninstall my burning software, or make a partition on my hard drive, and then gave a slew of problems with my CD-drive and took forever for the Cd-check to finish taking place. I ended up downloading Fahrenheit off bittorrent the same day I bought it. Why? Because the illegally hacked version looked like it was going to be less of a hassle than the legitimate copy sitting on my shelf. And it was: I didn't need to install a copy protection that had a history of crippling my system, and I never needed to put the CD in every time I wanted to load the game up. I can't think of a more damning indictment of copy protection than that.

Another problem is that a lot of "crackers" on the scene are doing it for the fun and challenge it provides, so tougher copy protection actually does the opposite, because it attracts people to break it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stepurhan

Maybe the additional content only available to registered users would be the way to go. How would you stop that being pirated thoguh? Presumably piracy starts with someone shelling out for the game so couldn't that same individual register for the extra stuff and then distribute it in the same way?

I'm sure you can implement a system (and I believe some games already do) where you can only download the extra material once your CD key is registered, and then that material is encrypted to only work with that same software. And I think that material would have to be online, because I doubt the retailers would allow PC games to have larger boxes again, after all that fuss over making them smaller to begin with.

Tanukitsune · 07-13-2006, 06:20 AM

Has there ever been a game that can't be pirated at all?

Starforce can be removed, CD-Keys can be created, etc, etc...

I might be against piracy, but I think copy protection is futile! Us legal guys have to go through more complex ways , and dangerously invasive apparently, to install a copy protected game...

I don't think there ever will be an infalible way to prevent piracy...

If they took a DNA sample the moment you purchased a game and you had to get a DNA scan before each game, I'll bet some hacker will find some way to overcome this obstacle....

kuze · 07-13-2006, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tanukitsune

Has there ever been a game that can't be pirated at all?
Starforce can be removed, etc

Only older versions of Starforce. Newest releases are not crackable so far. Also, new massive (or not so massive) online games are not playable on official servers if you don't own a legitime copy.

Tanukitsune · 07-13-2006, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuze

Only older versions of Starforce. Newest releases are not crackable so far. Also, new massive (or not so massive) online games are not playable on official servers if you don't own a legitime copy.

I'm guessing it's only a matter of time with Starforce, and there are many un-official servers for online games...

MdaG · 07-13-2006, 12:59 PM

Bleh! I hate copy protections. What I love the most with my old games is that I can create ISOs and run them 100% from the hard drive. No more (> 1 second) access time :-)

Aj_ · 07-13-2006, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kuze

Either you invest in an unbreakable copyprotection

Not true, no copyprotection is unbreakable.

Quote:

like heck it does, you just can't pirate it

Not true, Starforce has been known to create problems, and any piece of software can have bugs, at a low level it's more serious.

Quote:

Only older versions of Starforce. Newest releases are not crackable so far.

Not true, the newest games with Starforce have been cracked, and Starforce 3 has been cracked for a long time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stepurhan

Developers have a right to protect their games with copy protection. Copying reduces sales of games and hence their return. Therefore some form of copy protection is a necessary evil.

They have the right, copying doesn't reduce sales, copy protection doesn't work, so cannot be described as necessary, although most of the time it is evil.

Quote:

What can developers do to protect their hard work now? What forms of copy protection would be effective and acceptable to users? Are there any innovative ideas already in use? Over to you guys.

Nearly all developers don't protect their games unless they run online systems like Blizzard or Valve. Steam is so slow at preloading games and WoW patches are even worse, and they're the best in the business. Does it make any sense that I get Linux distros from bittorrent 5 or 6 times faster for free? A game is worth more to me if I can load it onto a HDD and run it from a virtual CD, most copy protection devalues games.

You can protect online games and casual copying, anything else usually does more harm than good. Only do things that don't effect the buyer. A publisher should be able to distribute games better than hobbiests running a tracker for free.

People are always going to buy games, if developers are worried about losing money they should be thinking about how to break away from the dependence on publishers.

07-09-2006, 12:22 AM	#1
stepurhan Freeware Co-ordinator Last Online: 03-12-2018 06:31 AM Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: South East England. Posts: 7,309	What is acceptable Copy Protection? To start with I'm making two assumptions. Developers have a right to protect their games with copy protection. Copying reduces sales of games and hence their return. Therefore some form of copy protection is a necessary evil. Starforce is not an acceptable form of copy protection. I haven't followed the arguments fully on this one but I know there has been a lot of negative publicity.. It is therefore possible that Starforce is unviable, not because it is a flawed system but because it is PERCEIVED to be a flawed system. If games with it won't be purchased then it's no good. If you want to argue this point I'd politely request you use one of the existing Starforce threads. So what is acceptable copy protection? Historically something as simple as putting the game on CD was enough. Now CD-writers are standard. You could put codes in a manual (carefully shaded to hamper photocopying) but high-res scanners and PDF manuals put an end to them. Similarly any sort of code chart is now easily copied. Even code wheels won't take that much to copy. What can developers do to protect their hard work now? What forms of copy protection would be effective and acceptable to users? Are there any innovative ideas already in use? Over to you guys. __________________ No Nonsense Nonsonnets #43 Cold Topic A thread most controversial, that’s what I want to start Full of impassioned arguments, of posting from the heart And for this stimulation all will be thankful to me On come on everybody it won’t work if you agree

07-09-2006, 05:03 AM	#3
kuddles Member Last Online: 01-27-2010 05:49 AM Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 88	I really liked what Galactic Civilizations 2 did. I think I would allow it to go a step further i.e. you can't even patch your game unless you register the game on the official website. Heck, you could also do something where you get bonus materials like extra maps, etc. for doing so. I know that can be abused by some larger companies, but I think it's a good compromise. I also think the internet checking system similar to what Steam or the premium modules for Neverwinter Nights does is also a brilliant plan, and eventually concerns over internet connections won't be as big of an issue in the future. On another note, while I don't support piracy and think this new mindset in our society that everyone feels they should be entitled to whatever they want is atrocious, I have strong doubts as to it's effect on sales. We're talking about the type of person who will wait for a 1 gig download of a film appears on a bittorrent site to finish, and then sit through a blurry/shaky camera with dubious sound or video quality and/or parts missing, along with plenty of other problems, and all of this to avoid plunking down $3.00 at their local second-run theatre. I don't think many of these people will be willing to relieve themselves of $60.00 because a crack for a game isn't going to appear for a couple weeks. __________________ Your favourite adventure game is overrated.

07-10-2006, 09:01 PM	#12
[toj.cc]Phantom The Punisher Last Online: 07-27-2012 02:18 PM Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Pleasant Plain, Ohio Posts: 771	Anything that isn't Starforce. __________________ I've got a bad rap as a senseless killer. Let me point out that I am a very sensible killer.

07-12-2006, 02:41 AM	#14
stepurhan Freeware Co-ordinator Last Online: 03-12-2018 06:31 AM Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: South East England. Posts: 7,309	I agree with you Gordon. But wouldn't inclueing such physical items require a total reversal of the trend to ship games in DVD style boxes. I havent' seen a new big boxed game in ages. I did love all that old stuff. I've still got my avatar coin and cloth map of Britannia from my Commodore 64 copy of Ultima V. Maybe the additional content only available to registered users would be the way to go. How would you stop that being pirated thoguh? Presumably piracy starts with someone shelling out for the game so couldn't that same individual register for the extra stuff and then distribute it in the same way? __________________ No Nonsense Nonsonnets #43 Cold Topic A thread most controversial, that’s what I want to start Full of impassioned arguments, of posting from the heart And for this stimulation all will be thankful to me On come on everybody it won’t work if you agree

07-13-2006, 06:20 AM	#16
Tanukitsune ACK! Last Online: 09-12-2011 01:47 AM Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Spain Posts: 2,448	Has there ever been a game that can't be pirated at all? Starforce can be removed, CD-Keys can be created, etc, etc... I might be against piracy, but I think copy protection is futile! Us legal guys have to go through more complex ways , and dangerously invasive apparently, to install a copy protected game... I don't think there ever will be an infalible way to prevent piracy... If they took a DNA sample the moment you purchased a game and you had to get a DNA scan before each game, I'll bet some hacker will find some way to overcome this obstacle.... __________________ Apparently I have a Devianrt Art account... And people actually like it!

07-09-2006, 02:29 AM	#2
kuze In an evening of July... Last Online: 10-12-2016 02:53 AM Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 1,215	Either you invest in an unbreakable copyprotection, and then recieve a lot of whining because "hurts my system" (like heck it does, you just can't pirate it), or you decide to use one that is more likely to be cracked. So if you say, Starforce is off limits (and I suppose so is every Starforce-like copyprotection that sits on a lower system level and is very hard to break), I'd say an acceptable protection is one that won't be cracked within days just because of its complexity (see HL2) but does not interfere with the legitime user. This way, for the guys that want the game as soon as possible the downloading and cracking option is not available, so they will go out and buy it - more sales during the first few weeks. A very common idea is to implement a multiplayer part into the game, and everyone who wants to use it will have to buy it (serial number required) - I'm not sure if you can file this measurement under "copyprotection".

07-09-2006, 09:41 AM	#6
SakSquash Banned User Last Online: 10-10-2008 08:34 PM Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: New Paltz...for now... Posts: 6,177	The only good copy protection is a DEAD copy protection.

07-09-2006, 01:53 PM	#7
Rulzern Member Last Online: 05-25-2008 04:26 AM Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 57	I'd say good copy protection is "as good as you can get it, without hampering your legitimate customers". Online activation is fine with me (Quake 4), but not online publishing systems (Steam). I really liked Quake 4's copy protection, because it's really simple, you put in your key, it verifies it, and you can play, no more hassle. If you don't have an internet connection, it will check against the local key-checking code, so you can play anyway. If you want to get around it, it's fairly simple, but it's an inconvenience. So piracy is limited to those willing to put up with finding a key, disconnecting their internet each time they want to play, and not getting any updates. This means that for Mr. Average Joe buying the game will be a superior solution compared to pirating it. The problem with pirating isn't all the people who download your software and use it (they generate revenue for you by spreading the word), it's the people who _would_ have bought it, but just found it more convenient to download it instead. The scary pirating figures that publishers wave around, are composed of a vast majority of people who wouldn't have bought the game anyway, and these people, by trying the game, generate word of mouth about the game, inspiring other people to buy it. My stance on this issue, is that developers/publishers should make it an advantage to buy the game, and most of all, don't inconvenience your legitimate users!

07-10-2006, 01:02 PM	#11
Stoofa Roar? Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 665	I think Maxis has a good thing going with the Sims and Sims 2. There is some kind of copy protection on the discs (I don't think it's Starforce) but the game is crackable. However, if you register your legitimate copy of the game you can download regular newly created objects and updates for the game, as well as houses and Sims that other people have created. It's a great way to intice people to pony up the $$ and pay for a copy of the game rather than download it.

07-12-2006, 12:00 AM	#13
Gordon Bennett Senior Member Last Online: 07-12-2007 02:07 AM Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London Posts: 357	I think that the increased use of more invasive copy protection, such as Starforce, is a terrible mistake that the software houses are making. It does make piracy more difficult, but not impossible. There is no such thing as perfect copy protection. At some point, the game has to be put on the shelf, and from there on, there is no way to alter the protection, but pirates can continue efforts to circumvent it as for as long as it takes. The overall effect is that, as we have seen, legitimate buyers are alienated, and those who would otherwise buy the game may either skip it entirely or turn to piracy. I've said this before, I'm bound to say it again. The best way for publishers to reduce their losses is not to include any more than the most basic protection, but to add value to originals that can not be duplicated by pirates. Infocom is of course the best example of this, with the collection of feelies included in every box. Other games have been released with books, maps, figurines, and other physical items. As it stands, a working pirated version is as good as the original. I don't know if this is the case anymore, but I remember in the past pirate copies were often superior, as they were often compressed, bugfixed, and trained, and often included a cracktro, documentation, and loading screen available as a separate executable. Even if this is no longer the case, the duplicate still contains everything in the original. As long as this is the case, piracy remains attractive. Additional items that are not on the disc will entice people to buy the original, even if they have a pirated copy or access to one, and rewards legitimate customers instead of punishing them with intrusive protection techniques. The most treasured items in my game collection, even more than the ultra-rare games, are the extra added items. It does make a difference.

07-13-2006, 12:59 PM	#19
MdaG Master of time and space Last Online: 09-24-2011 02:43 PM Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sverige Posts: 1,480	Bleh! I hate copy protections. What I love the most with my old games is that I can create ISOs and run them 100% from the hard drive. No more (> 1 second) access time :-)